Culture24’s CEO Jane Finnis joins us to talk through what Australia might learn from the work done with cultural institutions in the UK, across Europe with Europeana, as well as in Canada and the US.
More recorded talks from the Future of Arts, Culture & Technology Symposium 2023
Transcript
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And now, to share her knowledge of the digital landscape in our other hemisphere in the UK and Europe, we would like to welcome Jane Finnis to the stage. Jane is CEO of Culture24, an independent charity based in the UK and a partner at the award-winning UK cultural consultancy, CounterCulture. She has spent the last 20 years working to bring the global museum and gallery sector into the 21st century, creating a pioneering organisation in Culture24 that has become an important force in building digital capacity in the arts and heritage sectors. Jane, welcome up. Thank you, thank you. Hello. As Lucy said, I'm Jane from Culture24 and happy Valentine's Day. Just thought to spring some love into the room. So I run an independent charity in the UK. We're a small organisation but we kind of have a big footprint and we've been bringing people together to do things that they couldn't do on their own for, as you said, for more than 20 years. So it's really interesting listening to all those recommendations. It's like, yeah, I've tried that, tried that, tried that. They're the right recommendations but just to say that, totally the right recommendations. Anyway, we've been bringing people together for more than 20 years, arts and heritage people around the world, to talk about shared challenges of digital and to try and nurture a sense of purpose. So from like series of round tables, international round tables in Cuba and Taiwan and New Zealand and Japan and you'll see some pictures of Seb in there somewhere, from during the lockdown we were doing lots of online cohorts, again internationally in Myanmar and Greece and in the USA and we worked to build these communities of practice and these groups are made up of people who have come to us because they want to understand the digital world better and they want to build their own digital confidence. So we encourage them to become this idea of an agent of change, so an agent of change inside your own organisation and to be someone who can sort of shake things up from the inside. And to do this, they need to be able to articulate the challenges that digital brings, the benefits and the way forward and they need to develop their own digital confidence. And so they need to start to be able to uncover all the things that they don't know they don't know which is interesting because obviously that phrase came up in the last session. And to do this, they need to become this idea of agents of change is what they need to empower and to do that what they need is digital literacy. So over the next 30 minutes what I'm going to do is I'm going to share with you some definitions, I'm going to share with you some framings around digital activity and skills that we've been using at Coach24 that underpin the way that we work. I'm going to talk about why digital literacy really matters now. I'm going to talk about how the framings provide a foundation for digital transformation and then I'm going to share some insights from our work. So we're going to start with the first definition, so the fundamental one. When we talk about digital what do we mean? So we mean content and data and services, experiences, tools, systems, technologies, all of that kind of familiar stuff but we also mean all the behaviours and the motivations and the culture of the digital world. And I want you to kind of hold that definition in your mind as you're listening to everything that I'm going to be talking about because it's important that it encompasses all of those things. So that's the first definition. So we're now going to look at the first framing and we put this into practice all the time in the work that we do. And it's a square, it's a simple square and it's around how do you think about digital activity? How do you frame the way you think about digital activity? So it breaks it down into four quite simple areas. So the first one is how do I use digital? So using in the sense of the tools, the systems, the hardware. How do I manage digital? And this is often the area that gets neglected around managing licenses, software, passwords, but also managing the skills and the capacity of your own staff and your team. And then how do I create with digital? And this is the one people often jump to the easiest because it's about creating the cool stuff, the sexy stuff that everybody wants in their organisations, you know, videos or whatever it's going to be or content. And then the last one is how do I understand? And none of the other areas work to serve your organisation's mission without this understanding. So why are you doing what you're doing? Do you understand the intangibles around your audience's behaviour and culture? Why are your audiences doing what they're doing? What are the barriers to digital and physical access that they're experiencing? Do you understand the culture of the different platforms that you're using, who they attract and the kind of content that works on those platforms? So this framing kind of gives you a way to think about digital activity and can be a really useful tool in planning and thinking about what you're doing. So the second framing is around digital skills. And this uses a triangle and it breaks down the idea of skills into three areas. So competency, which is kind of action based, what I do with digital, capability is the intention, what can I achieve with it, and then the literacy is how do you consider it and the reflection. So all cultural organisations need people who can do all three of these things. But it's the literacy that's the most fundamental and in particular for the people who are making the decisions. So both of these framings were developed as part of a project in the UK called One by One, and One by One is itself a community of practice made up of museums and academics and researchers and funders and thinkers who developed and tested all of those, both of those framings I've showed with you. They were developed with a group of cultural organisations and tested and put into practice over a couple of years. And in order to create a kind of shared understanding of what digital maturity means that is both practical and specifically relevant to the cultural sector. So the second definition is the one on digital maturity and it's the one that comes out of the One by One project, okay, and it goes like this. So digital maturity is an individual or an organisation's ability to use, manage, create and understand digital. So you can see that that's using the language from the framing around digital activity. But it also goes on. So you've got to use, manage, create and understand digital in a way that's contextual, fit for the unique setting and needs of yourself. It's holistic. So that means it's involving your vision, your leadership, your processes, your own institutional culture and the people within it and purposeful, always aligned to the institutional mission. So this definition is, I think it's really, really useful and really important because within it are the layers of understanding that any organisation needs to improve its own digital offer and to improve its digital capacity and to become more digitally mature. So it's layered because what we're talking about, this is not a straightforward thing and it's not the same for you as it might be for me and it won't be the same for everybody in this room. And it always needs to be contextual to each of our settings and it needs to involve all parts of our organisations from everything we do, from the mission, from the way that we do things and from the culture that we operate within. So we have found that to grow the digital maturity of organisations and to increase its digital capacity, you need to build digital confidence and literacy of the team, in particular of the leadership. We've found this through all of our work over many years. So we call this digitally literate leadership. It's interesting because it's kind of like you're using the word mindset, we're using the term digitally literate leadership. But I think we're talking about the same thing actually. So why does it matter? Why does digitally literate leadership matter now? So the obvious thing is audiences expect it. They expect everything to work. But it's also really desperately important as the culture of the digital world itself has such a huge impact on every aspect of modern life. It shapes our communications, our social interactions, it's shaping the politics, it shapes our sense of identity. So many of the most pressing social issues we face as an increasingly kind of networked and connected society, they don't exist in a vacuum. And they're part of a complex, multi-causal ecosystem that has digital culture really woven into its fabric. And being able to understand the nuances of that culture is a key aspect of digital literacy for everyone, but especially those people in leadership positions. And as Seb was sort of, and Indigo were talking about, creative practice itself is changing and it will continue to do so as platforms evolve and integrate and connect. And you've only got to walk around downstairs in ACME to kind of see that in action. Technology's become more seamlessly embedded in our lives. We need to consider how this changes our mission and how we get beyond the technical limitations of all those infrastructures that they talked about that have been in place since the last century and are in loads of...for loads of people are just really not fit for purpose anymore. And in all of this kind of digital literacy is the key as it provides the building blocks that can support the kind of digital transformation that the sector needs if it's going to be fit...if we're going to be properly fit for the century that we're now living in. So I'm going to do a third definition now and this is around digital transformation. And this comes from the Europeana community. So I don't know if you guys follow that. Europeana is probably the most funded, longest running digital capacity building initiative globally. It's like all of the European countries coming together trying to understand what's happening. All the things we're talking about today, they've been doing it for like the last 10, 15 years. So this is their definition of digital transformation. It's both the process and the result of using digital technology to transform how an organization operates and delivers value. It helps an organization to thrive, fulfill its mission, and meet the needs of its stakeholders. And that word thrive, I think, is really important because it's not just about surviving. It's actually about kind of getting better and having some sense of wanting to be the best that you can be. So building that digital literacy and digitally literate leaders is the road to digital maturity, both personally for us all as individuals, for our organizations, but also importantly for the whole of our sector. So all of these definitions I've shared with you, digital and all the framings, all of that, all comes together in a guide to digital transformation that was published last year. And Culture24, myself and my colleague Anna Kennedy, we worked on producing this guide with a task force that represented the three components of the European community. So they've got their network association, they've got the aggregators forum, which is all the people that aggregate all the data, they're into their massive database. And they've got the foundation, which is the organization that runs it all. And they brought in some independent people too. So we worked to convene and lead this task force. And the task force have written and produced this guide to digital transformation. They kind of wanted us to write an action plan, but it became very obvious that that was absolutely impossible. So we've kind of gone for this guide. And I'm going to talk you through some of the foundations of that. So the guide begins with some definitions. It begins with the definitions that I've shared with you today. And it's really important, particularly when you're trying to do the kind of things that Seb and Indigo were talking about around building communities of practice, that sense of shared terminology is really important and helps to build consistency. So the definitions were followed by a set of three priorities. And each priority comes with related recommendations, and each recommendation sets out why it's important, what needs to happen, and who should be the people to do the work. So whether it's individuals, organizations, or networks. Because the role that we all play as people, as individuals, but also as people inside organizations and as part of a network, as a community of practice, they're different. The way that we can enact change becomes different. And then finally, at the end of the guide, there's a series of what we call starting points, which are sort of prompts and questions to help find a focus for a way into people to begin digital transformation in a context that best suits them. So it tries to end with some starting points, which is the kind of closest we got to an action plan. So I haven't got time to unpack the whole of the guide, but I really hope that you will go away from here and take a moment to read it and think about it and put it into practice in your own context. But what I do want to do is I want to highlight the three priorities, because they've been underpinning our approach to digital transformation, and they're underpinning our thinking now, going forward into the future as to how we're thinking about how best to support digital transformation. So the first of those priorities is around language and approach. Sharing a common language and approach to all aspects of digital transformation. So we've talked about that common language and why it's important. I've already shared with you some definitions. I've shared with you that approach, the framings of the square and the triangle, and that helps to give something for people to come together around and help them assess and understand the challenges. It helps people align their objectives. It helps to build that capacity that we're all kind of looking for. And it's really that language and approach are essential if we want to accommodate the multiple complex perspectives and context that we all have that exists across the whole cultural sector, because it's always so different for each of us wherever we are. So essentially what we're saying in the guide is that by getting to know and living with that language, living with those framings that the guide advocates that you use, will help you plan and make decisions about all aspects of your activity and help you understand and build your own digital maturity. So the second priority is around mindset and culture, adopting a mindset of culture that's open to learning and exploration. So positive change that supports digital capacity building is most effective when it happens in a kind of people-centered way. So looking holistically at the needs of everyone in your organization, from the volunteers, from your staff to the leaders, but also from the communities you work with and the audiences that you serve. So we need to tackle the challenge of change in a collaborative and connected way. Crucially, this is about valuing people-centered practice, emotional skills and emotional intelligence, because this is all about people. We're the guys that are going to have to be doing all of this work. The third priority is around purpose and values and ensuring that digital is purposeful and values-driven. So we can't forget in the cultural sector why we are doing this. Fundamentally, we need to build digital capacity and understanding in order to be more resilient, remain relevant, and thrive. But this means making an impact and a difference to the people who visit us, people who experience what we do and use our products and our services. So beyond that, digital transformation needs to be driven by your organizational mission, your purpose and the values of your particular organization, and to encompass the wider societal issues such as all the stuff around social justice and equality and the climate crisis. We can't forget all of that, all of the ethics that Seb was mentioning too about the digital world we operate in. That has to all be part of what we're thinking about. So a quick recap. So we've talked about some definitions. We've talked about some framings, the square on how you think about digital activity, the triangle, which is how you break down skills into literacy, capability, and competency. We talked about kind of why that matters now, about how digital literacy is the key to doing that and how the guide is our attempt at Culture24 to sort of frame an approach to digital transformation that can be adopted by anyone anywhere in the sector. So we have been putting all of this stuff into practice with the hundreds of organizations that we work with every year. Now I just realized I forgot to share something with you. Before I go on, I'm going to actually just... I can go back, can't I? There. So when we talked about the triangle, I didn't explain to you the difference between competency, capability, and literacy, and I think that that's a really important thing that I should do. So I'm going to do that. So I'm going to go... This is very technically unfriendly, but I'm doing it anyway. All right? I'm of the belief that if you do something wrong, you should own up and say it and then go back and fix it. Okay. So the difference is really important. So I'm going to explain it to you with a non-digital example. So competency is imagine like you've got a piece of wood and a hammer and some nails and you can know how to bang it together. So the capability is like, okay, I have that competency, I can make a wooden chair. The literacy is like, I don't know, do I need a chair? Maybe I need a bench. Do you know, actually, a stool actually would be much better in the space that I'm working in. So in digital terms, that can translate to something like the competency might be, I'm thinking about Twitter. What is Twitter? How do I create an account? How do I app people? What is a hashtag? What's all the fundamentals of the platform? The capability is like, well, actually, I'm a museum. What does that mean for me as a museum? How are museums using Twitter? What are the campaigns? What are the hashtags that people are working around? What kind of content fits the Twitter platform? And thinking about that intention of how you're using it. And then the literacy is like, do you know what? Actually, we're a design museum, and maybe Twitter isn't the best platform. I'm thinking maybe Instagram might be better, because that's more visually driven. So it's the kind of literacy to be able to distinguish and make decisions about why you're choosing one platform over another one. Okay, so we're going forward again. I think it's because I must be jet lagged. I'm in the past, and you're in the future. All right, so we go back all through this, get to the recap, blah, blah, blah. Okay, definitions, framing digital activity, framing digital skills, why it matters, skills guide, blah, blah, blah. So before we get to the kind of talky part of this, where you get to ask me some questions, I want to leave you with some key lessons. So first one, embrace experimental working. So this is something that we've been doing in Culture 24 through our own. We run this program of collaborative action research. We've been doing it for 11 years now. It's called Let's Get Real. And being experimental and developing experimental working allows you to develop your thinking, skills, and practices in a contained way. So it's an approach that allows you to take a series of small steps that can contribute to a program of change. So it's like lots of little steps that are not so scary as the big mountain of change that you kind of can see needs to happen. So basically what we're talking about is iteration. It allows you to start to think about iterating and breaking things down. And it's important to understand that working experimentally is not just one experiment. It's not just for Christmas. Experiments don't end. They should be a continuous process with constant revision. And that's kind of how you learn. That's how you learn in that kind of safe and contained space. So you can kind of plan an experiment, start with a question. At the end of the experiment, you go back to that question. You kind of go, what have I learned? Did I answer the question or not? And if it's an experiment and it fails, it doesn't really matter. It was just an experiment. It's okay. You work out what your next question is. You share what you've learned with your team, and then you start again. So for leaders, this kind of approach to experimental working is about being able to make space in your team to allow your team to do that. So you've got to resource and support your team to become those agents of change. I mean, if you're SEB, you can be the agent of change, okay? But you have to be a pretty digitally literate leader to be able to do that. So the next lesson is about kind of all of this is more about evolution than revolution. And I think that's more about working intelligently with what you already have. So this kind of speaks more to the smaller organizations. So it will always be true that there will be some cultural organizations that have the capacity and the ability to push at the edges of everything, to work with all the latest technology, do the stuff with the artists. And there are others who will pick up and run with what those organizations have done. But there'll always be those people who are unable to act because they simply don't have the funding, the skills, or the leadership to do so. And in our work, we found that for some people, digital is still very much the unknown. It's still very much the other. And that when they're asked or expected to embrace it, they experience trepidation. And the key to tackling that kind of fear and negativity that kind of exists, that may exist in your teams, is through our ability to empathize and understand what those people's fears are based on. And often, a lot of those fears are based on really real things that are actually kind of worth thinking about and having trepidation about. But being able to have that empathy is a really important part of tackling that. Many people, particularly in the last year or so, have been overwhelmed by this myriad of pressures that are impacting all of the businesses that we run. The rising cost of heating in the UK, and I'm sure the same is here, are having a massive impact on some of the leaders that I'm talking to. They're facing million pound deficits because their heating bills have gone up by so much money. And there's a very real sense, I think, of digital fatigue that is happening at the moment when actually the digital is exploding through the pandemic. It was completely exploding. It was rushing to do everything online. But there's this real sense of digital fatigue, particularly around kind of Zoom working and online working and all that kind of hybrid stuff. So none of this means that you can't be innovative or transformative in your processes because you can do that with the things that you already have. There are lots of ways that you can do stuff with what might be considered to be old digital technology. Things like email or e-newsletters are still really powerful tools that people can use if they use them well. And in fact, for many organizations, particularly a lot of the smaller organizations we work with, it would be really innovative and transformative if they just got the digital basics right. I mean, that would be like a game changer. Okay. Next lesson, there is a hidden cost to digital labor. So there's a really interesting series of podcasts that are produced in the UK by one of our associates at Cults24. And it's called The Hidden Constellation. And it's by Dr. Sophie Frost. And she talks about an alternative constellation of museum work, a map of digital labor that is disrupting traditional hierarchies of museum experience. And she explains this really, really beautifully. Different kinds of digital labor in the museum make up a constellation of work that produces like a constellation of stars, a pattern that shows us an alternative world of museum work, a world no less complex, overlapping or hierarchical than other more familiar kinds of work that takes place in the museum. So there's all of this stuff going on all the time. And these podcasts are really interesting. I'm pretty sure you can listen to them here. It's called The Hidden Constellation, Sophie Frost. So different kinds of digital labor in the museum. Yeah, I read that bit, sorry. So I guess what I'm saying is that what happens is that people often underestimate the cost of what the true digital labor is, especially if you don't have the digital literacy to understand how complex the digital activity is that you're trying to get people to do. So that framing that I shared with you, that square with the use, manage, create and understand, that's a really powerful tool to help people understand how complex planning something is. And when we've used that and we show that to leaders, it's not about them kind of thinking, oh, I don't need to know how to use, manage, create and understand anything, but they need to know that somebody does and they need to know that it's happening and they need to know that they are responsible for making sure that it's happening and that someone's thinking about it. Okay, last lesson. Nobody wants to transform, but nobody wants to change. So a cautionary note here, preserving the status quo is not a strategy. This is the guy who ran Adobe, probably doesn't mind it anymore, 2017, five years ago, he said that and everyone was like, oh, quick, write it down. But it's like, that was a long time ago, it's not cool to do that, particularly since the pandemic where we're all like, everyone's trying to think, can we get back to normal? It's like this is not a... This is like the... No, is the answer. So we've learned that fundamentally it is an organization's that struggle with change, it's the people in them. Okay, now you're all laughing, you probably know that. So this quote from a leader who was taking part in one of our... We're experimenting with this asynchronous digital transformation journey program at the moment, because we experiment, because that's what you should do. We're experimenting with it and one of the leaders in it, this is what they said, I signed up for quick wins, but I realized now that's not how digital transformation works. There is a sense of frustration in there, like, why aren't you giving me any quick wins? Give me a quick win. I thought I was gonna get some and it's like, oh my God, this is really complicated and it actually affects everything, doesn't it? And like, yes, it does. So I guess what I'm saying to conclude is that all of our work consistently demonstrates how digital literacy is the key to building that digital maturity, both personally, organizationally and sectorally. And it is absolutely the responsibility of leaders and of the funders and of our governments to invest in the development of that literacy if they want the benefits and opportunities of digital transformation to become a reality for any of us. Thank you. So I think we go over here and have a chat, yeah? I don't need that. Awesome, thanks so much, Jane. I wanted to pick up particularly on priority three, which was around digital being purposeful and aligned with organizational values. Yeah, in the guide, yeah. Yes, that's right. And I wondered if we could talk a little bit around how this digital work changes those values at all. How do organizational values map on to digital work? Do they resist each other? Do they change each other? I don't think that they should change your mission, but they do. But they do. I mean, you should know why you're doing what you're doing and it should be purposeful and meaningful and relevant and the rest of it. The digital world is part of the world that we live in. So everything around us, if you're paying attention, is impacting on that mission. So it shouldn't be something specific. It's part of how is society changing, how is the world changing, how am I responding? It's the same sort of... For me, we have the same kind of gender thinking about the climate crisis. That should be impacting on our missions. We should be changing that, but not so that you abandon. You're not abandoning what's important to you, but you're embracing the realities of the changing world into that mission. So it's not about kind of walking away. It's that sense of evolution and adaption, which is probably at a mission level really subtle actually. It'd be much more operational and strategic that you would want to see changes. Do you know what I mean? Seb, do you want to jump in? Yeah, I'm interested about that. I think if we think about the types of mission statements, we often see they're kind of quite... for what I've heard, it would be bland. They don't have a time horizon. They don't have... We collect and preserve great European art. Well, that's kind of like whatever it might be, right? That's kind of... Yeah, and who else does that? Yeah, so I do wonder whether the transformations that are occurring in society, particularly also now around climate and everything else, racial justice, actually require us to acknowledge that we do need to our missions and community purpose as recipients of public funds or tax write-offs for philanthropists and donors or corporates actually does require us to say perhaps the mission needs to change or how it's expressed needs to change to explicitly acknowledge the changing society? Or is the stability of the mission statement part of keeping people feeling like the world is not changing quite as fast as actually it is and keeping a kind of social cohesion piece going, basically, we've got to stable institutions? Because I guess, you know, I've been reading some of the tweets. Does anyone use Twitter still? It's kind of corrupted now, so... But mastodon is just hard. But we're all... Most of us are on there too, but if you can find us, that's great. But anyway, this sort of sense of like, is it that we... You know, we're at this place where institutions... And I'm talking about big to medium scale... Medium to big scale, institutional trust in arts institutions on a societal level is higher than in others that have been explicitly eroded by 40 years of conservative and in many cases far right misinformation. Is the need for institutional reform actually about, you know, bringing people along into that so we hold institutions to account to their public purpose and that public... What the public needs us for is different to what the public needed us for 20 years ago, 40 years ago, or in some cases in the UK sense when they were established hundreds of years ago. Is there something in that? And I guess this is sort of the piece around, you know, the skills that we need are also about a public value piece in this. Whether you're a theatre company or a museum or gallery, you're a recipient of public funding, so you do have to create public value for the public, however that is defined. And who comes into being that public is now changing too and how that sense of publicness is expressed, being a citizen is now expressed in a digital space and as we were hearing before the inclusion challenge is that when you don't have the ability to participate in civil society through that, do we have an argument, we see this a lot in the decentralised pushes in some parts of the world, that decentralise is kind of the antithesis of holding power to account. Yeah. I'm not sure, I mean this is sort of something that... I would love to see radical change of all of those missions, but that's just sort of me. All of my years of working with loads of organisations of different sizes, I guess what I've come to see is that some people's missions were never very good to start with, you know what I mean? It's like it wasn't really very good, and particularly in the UK, I mean a load of it, I absolutely love the... I don't know what the right word is, protocol, cultural recognition, the land acknowledgement and the elder and there is... This is not happening... I mean it's happening inside some museums, but it's not happening at a level of society where we go out like, we're really sorry everybody, we were really crap for a really long time and we did some really bad things. This is not happening. So a lot of the institutions in the UK are built on massively problematic colonial past and I would love to see that addressed at a mission level. I think that's a much bigger problem, but there's a digital layer within that, isn't there? About how do you do that and where is it appropriate to do it inside your organisation? I'm actually becoming quite digitally reluctant. I'm a bit digitally disillusioned actually and I don't really like social media and I don't really wanna be... I wanna get offline as much as possible and go and do life drawing and go out for a walk outside. And I'm digitally immersed, digitally whatever, not digital native, but first adopter or whatever we're supposed to be called. And I think that that's actually how a lot of people feel. So I'm kind of excited about when the thought of technology disappears, when you look at walk around downstairs and look at how those artists are interpreting, you're just thinking about ideas and the fact that it's being communicated through a digital medium is really matters if you're the curator, but it doesn't really matter if you're in the audience, you're just experiencing it. So I would love to see missions become more audience focused, audience driven, but I know that is not gonna happen. Not in the UK, not for a long time. There's a little layer that are really doing the job really well. There's a layer. There's probably a layer here and you guys are a part of that. It's like a pyramid. And you can be a digitally literate leader, an agent of change at a sectorial level because you're the CEO of Acme. And that's kind of interesting. So I run an organization and we're not a museum and we're tiny and we've been doing this for a long time saying, we're saying all the right things, but in our own country, I'm not at the top of the pyramid. And it's very difficult to make those sector arguments unless you hold the position to do so. We were talking a little bit about that. I think it's really good how you're setting this up. Thank you. I think there's some interesting stuff being talked about on Twitter around the two talks this morning so far around whether it is really about organizational change or organizational destruction and rebirth and starting again. That's just me. That's not actually culture 24, the formal position of anything at all. Some real sharp caveats around this. What I'm interested in around that is like, yes, theoretically, 100%, let's start again. Let's fix things, let's get rid of capitalism. Lovely. But realistically, if this is the system that we have, how do we work within it? How do we make change? And I think part of the sector that is really at risk at the moment is this multimedia cohort. And I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about what that is looking like in the UK. Pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. But this idea of change, I mean, one of the reasons why the guide talks about individual organizational and network is because the change agenda and the action is different depending on who you are. So you can do all sorts of stuff as an individual, but you're never gonna change the world. But you can change your little bit of it. You might be able to change your organization at an organizational level, but only some people can do the sector piece. Only some people are in a position to do that. You can come together in a network and then you might, as a group of individuals who work in organizations, be able to change the sector. And that is the only way it happens. And that's not just the digital world and museums, that's the whole of society. That's how it works. That's activism, isn't it? At its best. So that's how to do it. But to answer your question, the situation for small and medium sized organizations is pretty bad. But it's not bad because of the digital world. I don't think it's bad necessarily because they may... All of those digitally... The lack of digital parity that you talked about, the digital divide between institutions as well as the digital divide that exists in the audiences, that's very real in the UK too. But the problems that lots of them are facing are bigger than that. They can't pay the heating bills, the tourists haven't come back, they haven't got enough money, they have to make people redundant, they're facing all of these crises. And so what I try to say to people is, well, okay, so you're gonna have to rethink, aren't you? You're gonna have to... Seriously, we do this exercise called the response matrix where it's all about how are you reacting, how are you redesigning and how are you reframing? And the reframing is kind of the literacy bit. So it's like how are you gonna reframe what you're doing? You can't carry on doing all the things you're doing because you're overwhelmed and under resourced. So what are you gonna stop? And that's the really hard question that people don't want to talk about. They don't wanna talk about getting rid of anything. They don't wanna talk about there are a group of... It's five museums and actually one of them needs to go. No one wants that conversation because the museum world is dominated by preservation and conservation and... So there is loads of tensions within that to mediate, but it's making hard choices and it is about stopping doing something. And often I think a lot of digital activity is frankly pretty rubbish from the cultural sector. It's really poor compared to what we all experience in other sectors. We all do loads of other stuff online that all works. It's all up to date, it's all relevant, it's all connected. And you go to the museum sector and some of it is and a lot of it isn't, and some of it's out of date and some of it doesn't work, and some of it's really boring and it's like what... Unless you're a researcher, in which case it's really interesting, but it was never... A lot of the digital stuff, it's like this infrastructure discussion. It was never built for audiences. It was built for curators and academics. So it kind of works for them. They can find all the swords and the medals and our paintings and it kind of works. They would probably love to have lots of imagery and rich stuff too, but I don't know. I've got to go. I've gone off... I was on one of my hobby horses again. So as a MAGA president, you've got oversight over the Australian context. What's it looking like in this multimedia sector here? To be frank, it's really tough. I think on top of the fires and the floods, lots of people are really struggling and smaller orgs will only survive by working together. I think also there was some interesting work coming out of the US and the UK and Europe during the pandemic, which was about guidelines for humanely shutting down nonprofits when they've stopped servicing their communities and doing what they were set up to do when they were not resourced to do, how to shut down well. And I thought that was a really good acknowledgement. That's progressive. That's really progressive. That's good. Not everything can go on forever. Not everything should go on forever, certainly not in a static state. But in order to do that, you either move with constant change at a reasonable pace or things will... the world will change around you. I'll try to share that on a social platform once I dig it. I was trying to log into my notion, but of course my passwords aren't synced between my phone and, you know, like all the challenges. You're not managing your digital... The digital world is really challenging. It is. And I think that's the problem, right? That's why that personal bit is really important. How do people feel about the digital world? Are they nervous? Is there negativity? That kind of emotional bit around... Particularly around thinking about staff and change and all of that, it makes everybody really uncomfortable. And how people... I mean, like COVID, I was reading some statistic in one of Brenny Brown's pieces about how many people internationally are grieving because everyone knows someone who died and loads of people are sick and loads of people have got long COVID. So there's all of this sort of... All of these pressures going on with people, financial, whatever. So, you know, and that if you're trying to introduce a digital transformation agenda into that world, you've got to be really sensitive to people as human beings and think about that. Actually, loads of people are like, I don't want to go on Facebook. We talk to CEOs and they're like, oh, I don't do social media. Well, I'm like, okay, fair enough. I don't like it either. And they go like, oh, no, and it's not important for me to do it. Someone else in the organization does it. I said, yeah, you don't have to do it, but you have to understand what it is and why and how it's all different. And your decision for not doing it can't be based on the fact that you don't want to do it. You know, you're not... It has to be based on that fact that you've understood it all and made a choice, made a choice for yourself personally, which is completely legitimate, but you really are responsible to understand how it's impacting your organization. I think that's a challenge all over the place, that people kind of step away from that responsibility. And I think now that we've come full circle, we might be right on time. Do I conveniently bring it back to strategy? Yeah, you've done a great job there. Thank you.