A wheelchair user interacts with the Foley Room at ACMI - Adam Gibson
Image credit: Adam Gibson
Stories & Ideas

Tue 14 Feb 2023

Process Change: New audience, new needs

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Your museum of screen culture

The pandemic opened up access to new audiences for arts and culture and has forever changed how and when our publics choose to engage with various artforms.

This panel will explore how organisations are responding and new forms of research that needs to be undertaken to understand the lives of our communities. Distinguished Professor Larissa Hjorth joins ACMI’s Head of Experience, Product and Digital, Lucie Paterson, and Fiona Tuomy, Artistic Director of The Other Film Festival & Manager, Digital Innovation, Arts Access Victoria to discuss paths forward in design, research and inclusive practice.

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This transcript was machine-generated and published for search and accessibility purposes. It may contain errors.

Thank you. Hello, everyone. We'd like to acknowledge the people of the Wurrung and Wurrung language groups of the eastern Kulin nation on the Wurrung language group. We would like to acknowledge the people of the Wurrung language group. We would like to personally acknowledge their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging. Always was and always will be. Okay. Well, it's really interesting seeing heads with bodies, isn't it? It's really like wow, who would have expected that? Wow, that's a huge amount of information. That's a huge amount of information. That's a huge amount of information. Life after Zoomlandia. Thank goodness. Wow, excellent. This panel is going to talk about some of those kind of very much the social life of the digital and to put the digital back into context perhaps some of the ways in which the digital has actually opened up for new audiences. One of the things that we're also going to do, so we've been rapidly changing how we're going to talk. Okay, you haven't been able to hear me at all, have you? You did? Right, wonderful. So because this session is about audiences, we really wanted to make sure that you as an audience can actually have lots of Q&A time. So we've been rapidly changing things behind the scenes because over the last day and a half, we've got to start to understand just how diverse this audience is. So we really want to, we don't want to be a panel of just rhetoric and oxymorons, no, tautologies. We want to actually, oxymorons, we want to actually allow you to have some time. So we're going to ideally go for half an hour and then we're going to open up to you. So a lot of what we're going to be saying is kind of seeing how diverse this audience is. So we're going to be talking about how we're going to be able to have a lot of time to talk about different things. So we're going to be talking about how we're going to be saying is kind of seeds of thoughts or prompts or probes to allow you as an audience to be active members and to really participate in this conversation. But Fiona, would you like to say something about life after Zoomlandia? Yeah, yeah, no. Well, there is in one theory for a lot of people, we're in the life after Zoomlandia. But for many of us, and you know, in Australia, we, there's something like 47 per cent of Australians have underlying health conditions. So they're particularly in the disabled community, people who may be immunocompromised, whether you identify with disability or not. I've taken the risk today, I've come in person, I'm sitting here with a mask. I prefer not to, but you know, have to wear a mask, but it's a reality. So I think what the challenge is, is that for whole communities and for audiences, you know, Zoom or other incredible things that we were able to actually expose and do during the official pandemic, because the pandemic isn't over, you know, we're starting to see that fall away, but the need and that social, the injustice and these discriminations that many people in our society experience and were experienced before the pandemic, it's still there. So I think partly with this panel, it's exciting to explore, isn't it, where we're at, but where we could be and how we can all, I suppose, contribute to respecting everyone in the community. And we've seen a lot of challenges during the pandemic, but we've also seen some opportunities. So what we'll be doing is fleshing some of that out. But we've decided to run this panel, past, present, future. So each of us are going to just do a little riff about past, present, future to give you a little bit of context for what we do and where we're coming from, where we're sitting and where we'd like to go, and hopefully some of those conversations will connect with you as an audience. Okay, so this is my slide. So Hello Kitty on a Phone. So over 20 years ago, I was living in Japan and doing work around mobile media. And this is for me where it really started, where I started looking at the social life of the digital. And what was really, really amazing for me was seeing the rise of what was the first mobile internet, first smartphone, if you like, was actually about how much it was embedded in placemaking and embedded in kingship. And I think we need to really bring that on the table when we're thinking about the digital, is that the digital, when it's useful, when it is really meaningful, is when it's actually reinforcing that kingship. And it might be kingship in terms of intergenerationality. It might be kingship. And I'm not just talking about biological kingship. It might be kingship with our more than humans. Animals, I mean, look over the pandemic. How many cats came across our screens or dogs interrupted? I mean, really what it highlighted was one in three Australians prefer animals over humans. So let's just sit with that for a moment. But this phone, Yoko was talking me through these Hello Kitties. These Hello Kitties were not about her just finding her mobile phone in her bag, although that's very useful for location because it's so big with all those Hello Kitties. But every Hello Kitty she could tell a story about, about a place that she had been with a person. And so it was about memory making. It was about storytelling. It was about place making. And what we can see is that the digital continues to do that. It can enhance some of those very things that during the pandemic really were disruptive, that sense making. And often we use the digital to try and reinforce or re-enhance that sense making mechanism. I'm going to go next. I'm going to talk a little bit about the last seven years that I've been working here at ACMI in digital roles. And I really liked what Jane said yesterday about the digital role being a change maker role. And it definitely feels like that. It's always, you're always sort of pushing the boundary, trying to move the organisation ahead and forward and also really trying to get people in your organisation to do things that are harder and different. So I think, yeah, that really resonated with me. I come from a digital product background, so really looking at business needs, user needs and technology and how those things all come together. And digital product management is very much about focusing on strategic projects and initiatives that are aligned to your organisation's priorities to move forward and very much connecting with audiences. So I guess coming from that background and then working in museums and galleries in the cultural context, digital products and services can be quite sort of siloed and quite to the side. But at ACMI, the idea was really that it needs to be integrated throughout everything we do so that all of our programmes, we're thinking of products and that we're kind of moving that sort of labs idea that Paula was talking about yesterday, but integrating it much more into our business as usual. Or operational work. I'm really interested in how we use experience design and digital innovation and systems thinking to improve the experience that people have in our museum, if that's online or in the building. And also with the systems thinking piece and the tools and processes and workflows that we all use internally, how the lives of our teams can be better and how the kind of collaboration and participatory sort of tools that we use internally can actually build empathy and trust and make better things for our audiences as well. So this is a couple of photos of the lens. So the lens is something that we introduced when we reopened a couple of years ago at ACMI and it lets you collect everything that you like and that you make in the museum and then you can log in and go home later and explore what is on it. So if you haven't gone downstairs and experienced it, it would be great if you would. It's had really great feedback from a lot of our visitors and it's been really successful. We know much more about our visitors now, so we didn't used to have much information about the people that were going into our permanent free unticketed exhibitions. And now 20% of these visitors are actually logging in. So we're finding out much more about how they move through time and space, about what their interests might be and at some point in the future we'll be able to look across the kind of last two years and spot trends of what's changed based on our programme. These are also audiences, so when we talk about new audiences, these are new audiences that we didn't know anything about really beforehand. All of that data is obviously anonymous and all of that. And some things around why for the lens. So I think when you're going through the exhibition collecting things, even if you're not looking when you get home, there's an intentionality when you're going through and sort of thinking about things that you're interested in that even helps with the memory making piece that Larissa was talking about as well. It's a souvenir that you can take home, the ACMI brand is in your house and all of those things. And then we've talked quite a bit about infrastructure as well in the symposium and the lens is made possible because we built and invested in a big piece of infrastructure called the Experience Operating System. And when we talk about new audiences, it means now that we've built this infrastructure and we've made this huge investment and we're fortunate we have developers in-house who can continue to build on that investment when we identify new audiences, when we identify new needs. So some of the things that we've developed since opening for new audiences are automating transcriptions for all our videos on our collection online, made a commitment to have captions on all of our videos with dialogue online and in the galleries, automating large print labels in our exhibitions and working on translations and multilingual in the future as well. And also remote access for researchers to view digitised works. I'm going to throw to Fiona now to talk a little bit about our collaboration on Cinema 3, our video streaming platform with the other film festival. Thanks, Lucy. So perhaps you could, you know, I think what's important for ACMI Cinema 3 in terms of the platform, it's on Shift 72, isn't it? So for us with the other film festival, we first came across Shift 72. We worked with MIF, Melbourne International Film Festival. So a couple of years ago, I think at the height, here in Melbourne in the lockdowns and the pandemic, a whole lot of to use that dreaded word pivot, a whole lot of film festivals around the world, but MIF was one of the leaders and one of the first to use the Shift 72 platform. And it's so great that ACMI, you have this platform and for us with the other film festival, it was, you know, we were already working kind of in partnership with ACMI, so it made a lot of sense rather than us going off and having our own platform to, you know, work in partnership and utilise the Cinema 3 platform. So just to circle back a little bit, so coming from Arts Access Victoria, some of this you might know that all, but if you don't, we're one of Australia's leading arts and disability organisations. We're based here in Victoria. We're in our 50th year. We're also, depends on which funding hat, we have to keep kind of looking, saying different things for different funders to be honest. So we're also in that way for Creative Victoria here, we're funded as a service organisation, so as much as we produce work and work very directly with the deaf and disabled community of artists and audiences, we're also in some ways Victoria's disability arts peep body. So when, and then equally the other film festival that's been running for 20 years, but actually before the pandemic, I mean I think I've been in this role roughly, it's, well, working directly on the film festival for about four and a half years. We ran our last traditional, what I would call the traditional film festival back in 2018, as in it wasn't live streamed, it was the model that TOF, the film festival worked to was, it ran every two years and it was for three or four days. So then what I really, and my team, what we dismantled, we dismantled that model and because what I realised being a film maker as well, it's not just the content, it's the power and agency, the process of who's actually making the work and who's getting to tell the stories. And so that is of interest to us rather than just, oh look at that film, it's got disability content. We also, I don't know if I mentioned that already, so for AIV our kind of vision is cultural equity for deaf and disabled people. We're very much grounded in the disability rights movement, the social model of disability, disability pride, disability justice, shifting to a self determination framework. And so all of those things inform the programme and what I wanted to share with you, which we've got the video, is I did invite Kath Duncan, who is quite a well known disabled artist and advocate to guest curate the programme and the great thing about Cinema 3 with this platform, you know, that you can have not the films but also individual bonus content. So this is just the general intro and I just want to share with Kath because it really shows the point of view represented for this and also the kind of energy we tried to bring, which did really successfully connect with the audience. This year the other film festival with Alter State goes, Flaunt. I'm Kath Duncan and flaunting is pretty much my favourite thing to do. Flaunt started from a joyous dive into freaks and the world of the freak show that desire to reveal ourselves unashamedly and boldly in all our power and vulnerability, to flaunt our secrets and the extremes, love and poverty, discomfort and resilience, sex and shame and blow it all up and out and into the open, to take pride in even the ugly bits. The films may shock and surprise you, expect tension and conflict, they're intense for both disabled and non-disabled audiences. These films expose our unexpected, unusual and unseen ways of being in the world. It's new ground for all of us. Flaunt films are confronting films. Flaunt is not shy. Shyness is overrated. It's free to flaunt. All films are audio described and captioned. They highlight deaf and disabled people in key creative roles as writers, lead performers, directors and producers. Flaunt is the display of disabled and deaf power. Join us with the Flaunt films online with me, Kath Duncan, your guest curator at ACMI Cinema 3. Just to add to what Fiona was saying, it was hugely enjoyable, the partnership that we had with AAV on this project and for all of our rentals last year on Cinema 3, a third of them were through the TOF Festival, so again, another new audience for us that we would not have known previously and now we can have more conversations with AAV about having an in-person session as well later in the year, so always, yeah, just lots of opportunities. I think we're already talking, if Ben's here, about, he was saying, Flaunt, you've had lots of inquiries, so we may, we'll probably do a hybrid, you know, re-present some of this again. But Lucy, the other thing is, and that was the thing with TOF, I mean, 20 years ago, roughly 20 years ago when it first started, one of the reasons it started was that major film festivals weren't offering captioning, audio description, you know, really key access, so the term the other, there's been a lot of debate about that, but that was very, remember the term, the term of essentially, that was a very fashionable term, and, but that was something too, we worked very closely with your team and I think, you know, the upside of, you know, we as an organisation benefit and our benefit a lot for our community, but for you at ACMI, it meant we did a lot of work too on the access side and just even a lot of that you were doing there already or it was just how it was presented and how it was kind of clear, and I suppose you've got some examples too about why the things you're doing at ACMI as well. Yeah, there's just a couple of other examples. So these are our large print exhibition labels that we've worked on and wouldn't have probably got there as quickly if we hadn't have been doing the partnership with AAV and now this is a commitment for all of our exhibitions and these are printed out and available on site for visitors and also a sensory guide that's in testing at the moment for the How I See It exhibition which supports visitors with just helping them to understand what to expect in each space from a sensory experience perspective. Right, now we're into present. I feel like we're kind of already in present. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I just want to kind of bring the conversation to methods and thinking about methods. There's been a lot of stuff around using big data or to kind of look at Instagram likes and that has driven a lot of the kind of metrics for museums and kind of datafying audiences but I'm really interested in what data can't capture and really those kind of gaps and I just want to quickly just speak to a project which my colleague Ingrid Richardson who's over there we worked on and I think Brendan's there. I think, can I see Brendan? Anyway, this was about looking at, this was an Australian Research Council grant which looked at games inside the home and what we did is we followed 60 households over three years to actually put games in context. One of the biggest problems about these discussions about the digital and games et cetera is that they often are taken out of context and become scapegoats for broader social issues and so if we can put it into context then we can start to actually understand what are some of the kind of opportunities, the limitations as well. So this is a very kind of understanding kind of what it is in our mundane lives and how we make sense of it. So in this project we went inside people's homes and followed them and ethnographers are really interested in the mundane so the kind of stuff that you would not want to talk about we find really fascinating and we use all these different methods to try and get you to talk about these tacit practices because these tacit practices are actually how you make sense of the world. And so we'll use various different methodologies like with Ingrid we explored haptic ethnographies which is actually about thinking about the haptic screen and the way in which that creates different embodied relationships with media and when we went into homes we thought when we were doing our ethics application it was like yeah we're going to be going into people's homes and we're going to be looking at people and devices and that's it. And sure there'll be something about intergenerational literacy probably and of course we found that but then we also found when we were going into interviews cats getting in the way, dogs getting in the way and then we realised that actually they weren't getting in the way they were actually core to the conversation because what was happening there was the more than human in that digital kingship model. So next slide, there's an example. So really using methods not as just tools, blunt tools that we go in and go bang, bang, bang, you know how many likes we're here but actually using them as ways of seeing in the world and ways of being in the world. And so methods change if we really listen deeply to the field methods change in and through the field. And so no method remains untouched. So ethnography as a process is always ongoing. And so this idea of ethnography as trying to map rather than the snapshot of the moment and taking it out of context, understanding it as a dynamic rhythm. Okay, so yes that project kind of basically got us to think about the idea of taking new models of digital kingship, also thinking about the intergenerational and as we're seeing with ageing populations, you know disability will be on the rise and you know how are museums actually engaging with this in really meaningful ways which are not tokenistic but actually celebrating the vulnerabilities. I think it was really great about that video. Understanding this is actually an opportunity for digital inclusion rather than a barrier to and I think here I'm nodding to Indigo's fantastic talk yesterday which was really addressing what the Australian Digital Inclusion Index is doing. And that we do really need to innovate our methods and we can't just rely on the algorithm kind of big data kind of stuff to give us meaningful stuff because it won't. It will just flatten things into snapshots. So we really need to think about those methods and use them in really, really robust ways that understand that they are shaped in and through the field. And so we are in the, so this is kind of past, present. So myself and Indigo, Jacina and Adi worked on this project looking, this was pre-pandemic, looking at ACMI and digital wayfaring. So digital wayfaring is this idea. Wayfaring is the kind of rhythms and routines of everyday life. But digital wayfaring is the idea of embodied knowing. So that idea of proprioception, you know when the knowing body as we're moving through things and understanding that the weaving in of that digital social material can't actually be pulled apart. And so if we can't pull it apart, how can we actually start to think about those methods on the move and how they can bring us new kind of possibilities for understanding audiences. So this project really tried to think about like what happens when we take that Instagram moment and hashtag it and then the thoughts and processes that go after that, the stuff that the data doesn't collect, how can we actually engage with that? So this project was really trying to do that work. And that's then led to successful Australian Research Council linkage which is RMIT, ACMI and Australian Galleries and Museums Association working on a project thinking about the digital and social museum futures which I can talk about in question time. Let me say, I might just add, because when we talked when we met up is that for the film festival, when we do it IRL, we often use wafering as a way of access. So this digital wafering is really exciting to me because it's like you could take that and have this access component. So an example of the wafering, and it was very simple, but say our festival is based here at ACMI and we just make it very clear if you're getting the train from Flinders Street, which is another reason being in ACMI for us is an example. And for one of our main funders, the City of Melbourne, that's something we get measured on is how accessible are your venues. So wafering in that context for us in access, it may be this is, we will literally have someone walk or roll from the different public transport spots, so Flinders Street Station or where the nearest trams are, and for us it's also notifying where the nearest wheelchair accessible trams, if you're parking, and then we'll literally have wafering, this is something to look out for, this is a stop. Or it can also be, in the case of the other film festival, they've always pretty much had orange T-shirts because we may have, and I've had this for another program I worked on at Rideability out of the Wheeler Centre, sometimes we actually literally had to have people on street corners or whatever depending on different people's access needs to help them find their way to come up to their space. So anyway, it's very exciting to see digital wafering because the possibilities and how that could be expanded. And I think giving that voice also to the multisensorial ways in which we can experience the world is really kind of crucial for addressing diversities and being really inclusive about it, and it enriches everybody's lives. And for us we still have to have that balance of, I suppose, hybrid or that multimodal way that you can do digital, but you also may need, killing a tree, having paper or having that physical person. And that's something too, I think, Lacey, there's been work with your staff and visitors, it just can be small things that can make a huge difference to how inclusive things become and accessible for audiences. Yeah, I think so. Often we get a bit excited about QR codes and we think, oh, we'll just pop a QR code somewhere and someone will be able to access anything we want online, but we've actually found that printing some of the stuff for people has actually, it feels very old school, but has actually been much more effective and useful for people. You heard that example of that grandfather in New Zealand who was going around QR coding and he was actually just taking pictures of them because that's what he thought he had to do. So I think there's something about that also, the conversation about access and literacy is two different things and I think I'd also like to take up something in terms of yesterday's discussion, but I think sometimes there can be a little bit of ageism around those discussions. There's still that little thing of like, oh, yes, we'll give all the new technologies to the young people because they know what they're doing. It's like, yes, they've grown up with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they really understand it in terms of literacy. So I think there's something there in terms of teasing that conversation out. Sorry, QR coach, just get me. As you know, in the disability community technologies, for some people who may not speak, you know, you have voice, literally speak with a voice or, you know, it's been transformative and that power and agency that, you know, people who may be non-verbal, et cetera, different things, it's actually quite, you know, it's incredible. Yeah, so. And it reminds me, SMS was actually invented for the deaf community and then teenagers did it and then that's what happened. Well, that's the big thing we know with access, like the things that can come from it, you know, you make it's a classic, the wheelchair accessible building, then people with anyone with mobility issues, so that could be, you know, could be older people, but also could be parents with prams. So, you know, there's a whole lot of, by actually sometimes meeting these needs of one particular community, you open up for more. But I'll just say quickly, one of the things, and we're going to bring this to ACMI, we've started doing at AOV, is that we are benchmarking digital access, so we're using Flaunt as one example, our checkpoint, Nebula, that was outside, outside of Melbourne last year as part of the Old State Festival. We do a monthly, everyone is welcome to come, we're going to do some hybrids this year, the gathering, but also last year we do a lot of exhibitions, but we did one in partnership with Emerging Writers Festival, it's called By My Bed, and that we invited a whole lot of disabled, chronically ill writers to take photos of what they may have by their bed, because a lot of us at times even work from bed and write about it. And that was at No Vacancy Gallery, but we also had that, it's still available online on our website. So there was all very, when we, you know, on a smaller scale, and ACMI do it with exhibitions, how we will create QR codes, but the other access it will have available, and I think the session before was talking about organisations, there is a lot we're learning now to do in house, and we can do, we can live stream, we can do a whole lot of things, because we're committed that we will offer either hybrid or digital first options, you know, and it does take time and more organisation, but it is possible, but that is a commitment of solidarity to our community, so please know I say this with respect, but even me coming today and this not being live stream, I have to question, and I thought, well, I'm actually probably going to do more good sitting up here on stage, rather than not coming, but that solidarity, that this, for people that cannot leave their homes for whatever reason, you know, are still self isolating, et cetera, these are really critical issues, and there's a whole lot of reasons why things can or cannot happen, but I think, and I know ACMI are very mindful of it and very respectful of it, so I think it's evolving, and I try to be optimistic. I think as well what you were saying, Fiona, about trying things in house and doing more, and that I think we've really learnt a lot in our partnership with you, and just now can, we do a lot of testing now and have people come in from the AIV community who have lived experience to test our products and services with us, and it's, yeah, it's a much more authentic offer now, but there's also much more, I think, trust building in that community to actually, you know, if we don't have it perfect the first time, we're still asking, we're engaging, we're inviting them in to create these things with us, so I think it might take longer to get to something kind of really great across everything we're doing, but yeah, there's a lot of trust there. Well, that's a form of investment in itself. I think we have, I mean, I'm not entirely, but we have this service, it's called like a mystery shop ask, you know how there was always that theory, like when I was growing up that supermarkets had these mystery shoppers, and so that would be a cool job, but we kind of do that, that you have different access requirements, I think there was one just at the moment the other day, someone came in, you're not knowing that they're coming in, but they were testing, you know, sensory access requirements, but that's something that we do with ACMI, but a lot of different organisations, and it becomes a really, because then you get that feedback in the report and you can kind of target straight away. I was going to just briefly touch on, but can also do it in the question time, just about our new kind of focus on research and evaluation, particularly with Indigo joining the team and building much more of a function into the whole organisation, so instead of just digital, it's going to be across everything we do, which is really exciting. There we are, and we are there now, welcome. That can be the audience, you can be the future. So I wanted to just, in terms of the future, just one of the things that when thinking about the digital is, you know, the kind of what we're leaving behind, and I think a lot of the panels, I loved the archive, I mean I've loved all of it, like thank you very much for the wonderful experience, but the archive session yesterday where talking about the kind of material legacy issues is really, and the waste culture and the fact that the digital is really, really implicated in this, in really, really complex ways. So I think we also need to have a bit of a pause for reflection as well in terms of thinking about its ramifications. So one of the things I loved is this thing that I read, which was like basically in five years' time Facebook will have more dead users than living users, now some would argue that it's already full of dead users, it's dead, it's Facebook, but using that as a provocation, you know, what does it mean that when we're living with data of the dead? And thinking about, you know, what happens to it? Who owns it? Where does it go? Does it get sold? You know, there was this really interesting case with Holly Gazard in the UK where basically she was killed and she was basically killed by her boyfriend when she dumped him, he killed her. And so imagine with the parents, they're looking at Facebook and all those pictures of her, their happy, dead daughter is with the boyfriend cum killer. So they contacted Facebook and said we want to, because all her pictures were on there because she was a young generation, everything was there. And they said she didn't have a data legacy in her, so if nothing else you can take away, go home, look at Facebook and make sure they're in the digital legacy dimension, that you actually put somebody as stewarding your data afterwards because otherwise Facebook owns it and they're like, sorry, we can't touch it because she didn't sign off on it and she didn't know to sign off on that. So of course a web sheriff came in, which had like the new generation of like coming in and kind of keeping people honest and they went and basically hacked the whole system to get rid of the boyfriend cum murderer. But you know, we can't all expect web sheriffs to come and save our day. So I think the point is that actually thinking about some of that kind of future implications of data and you know, that it actually, data has really real material impact in the world and so do we really need another Instagram picture of that? Or you know, so just thinking a little bit more carefully about how we use it and thoughtfully I think is something that is really something that we need to consider. So I did this little installation where I got people to respond to it and it was quite funny how some people were quite fickle and some people were actually quite thoughtful in their responses about where their data might go and what might happen to it and its afterlives. So as well as thinking about the social life of digital while in its life, we also need to think about in its death as well as a continuum. So I'm kind of taking the future, not to death, but you know, to think about it, to put it in that kind of space just to resonate. The other thing I just wanted to bring back to was I had just an example of an exhibition recently that I participated in which was for the Big Anxiety Festival and I think that was an exhibition where curated by Grace McQuilton, the design hub, which was the Children's Insorium which was addressing children between two and 11, particularly mental health issues and also neurodiversity and so the whole space was designed by Anthony Clark who does, he specialises in autism and designing space around that and then also with Naurit, Boomerang elder, Naurit Caroline Briggs came in to design it around the Kulin nations and I think that was for me a really, really fascinating experience about how we could change things differently for audiences in terms of firstly thinking about what it means to make work on unceded lands and how we are engaging our storytelling with that but also thinking about the multisensorials so the space had all these areas that kids could go and hide in because it was like sensory, it had plants and it had things that people could play with and lots of playful moments but it also had moments where people could just take time out and I think given the pandemic, what we're seeing with the pandemic, a lot of people are burnt out, a lot of people have fatigue and so having that kind of built in, that kind of mechanism I think is something that we really need to think about in the future, the sustainability issues I think is really, I just want to put it there. I mean this might have already been discussed but digital sovereignty is a huge part of the digital cultural strategy that Australia Council has. I think it's a really well written and really good strategy but I just wanted to sort of throw that in there. I'd like to thank you as our active audience for being active and I'd like to thank our panellists and you, Louisa, too. Thank you.